POLL: Arm Teachers?
MN legislator says yes, Gov. Dayton says no, but a Mpls. school staffer took matters into her own hands and brought a .357 Magnum to school. Should teachers bear arms?
Updated below. Should Minnesota teachers, including ones in St. Michael and Albertville, carry guns at school?
One staff member at a Minneapolis public school apparently thought so—according to authorities, she brought a loaded .357 Magnum to Seward Montessori Wednesday.
MN Rep. Tony Cornish (R-Vernon Center) has a bill that would let educators have firearms in classrooms, according to WCCO-TV. The idea is to prevent massacres like last week's mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, CT that left 20 students and seven adults dead. Cornish told WCCO:
“We found out that nothing else works, and I think teachers are the best people to confront this. Even an armed security or an armed cop doesn’t do a lot of good if they get by him or her. Then they’ve got all these classrooms that they can go to. So, I think the best defense is a teacher."
Update: Rep. Cornish told Patch by email Thursday:
"The bill has not been formed yet. I will introduce one, however. I just don't want to hurry it now that I've seen that two other states have announced they will work on a policy in the same way as Texas generally. I'd like to get as many examples as I can." (Those states are Virginia and Tennesse, he said.)
Gov. Mark Dayton (DFL) disagreed, saying, “I think that would increase the danger. To have weapons in classrooms, to me, just defies common sense," MPR reported.
The question of arming teachers has heated up across the country:
- Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell said the idea should be explored.
- A South Carolina bill would let teachers carry guns if districts OK it.
- A San Juan Capistrano, CA city council member urged private and public schools to let teachers carry guns.
- A California congressman disagreed, arguing against a Texas representative's armed-educator proposal.
Do you support or oppose efforts to arm teachers? Take the poll above and leave a comment below.
Lynn Cedergren
12:03 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
I think, if there had been somebody in that school who had been armed (and trained), the Sandy Hook disaster would have been slightly less of a massacre. He could've at least been stopped from getting to the kids. I don't think it should be required, but I'm sure there are several teachers in each school who already have guns and training and they should be allowed to have them available at school. Of course, the gun(s) would have to be locked and out of children access, but I believe that even knowing there are armed staff at the schools would deter some from even trying anything. Personally, I think the best option would be to have a couple of armed guards as a first defense.
Erica Gindele
12:11 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
Has anyone thought of securing or entrances (windows and doors) first? Shouldn't arming our teachers be the last resort? For instance, at my child's school, you must get buzzed in, and then check in at the office. Someone with a gun, simply has to get buzzed in, and that's it! They aren't going to stop at the office for a hall pass. My suggestion is double doors, buzzed in one set, thoroughly checked in (perhaps with an armed police officer), then buzzed through the second set. Also, reinforced windows. I think this will keep our children and teachers much safer, than arming them.
Rick
8:11 am on Friday, December 21, 2012
At Sandy Hook, the shooter shot through the glass at the front entrance. One of the first people to confront him was the Principal, whom as we all know, fatally shot. Had she been trained to carry a pistol, very easily she would have engaged him and quite possibly prevented this tragedy.
Ken
9:40 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
When I was a kid you could bring your gun to school. Many kids went hunting after school. Of course back in those days (35 years ago) I do not remember having school shootings. I think this shows that the guns are not the problem. Maybe a lack of guns? You have to look at what has changed and not what has stayed constant.
mollie little
4:28 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
When a gunman gets past an entrance (like he did at Sandy Hook) hopefully there would be staff well trained in self defense to stop the armed criminal. When a criminal knows that there are armed people where he is plannin to commit his crime, he is less likely to go there.
Rick
5:48 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
Call gun free zones what they truly are. Invitations to kill zones. If anything good came out of this, people will realize that mental health, correct firearms storage and getting rid of these idiotic "guns banned on these premises" mentality will actually prevent this nonsense. Keep in mind. A lunatic half way around the world in China only 12 hours prior to this tragedy attacked and severely injured 21 school children with a butcher knife.
Melissa
6:01 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
Yes I believe someone at the school needs to be armed. It does not help to just have secure entrances to a building most Stma schools are secured entry. The glass doors do not stop bullets. And people cannot stop gunmen with hands. It takes an average of 6-7 minutes for first responders to get to a location. Too many people can get hurt in that amount of time. Maybe a principle of a school should be packing if we cannot afford guards or police at schools. I would feel safer if someone was armed in the school as long as this person had a psychological evaluation or a past mental history completed on them.
Eric Drager
7:18 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
The thought of guns at school makes me cringe. How long until a staff member is careless and leaves their gun somewhere where a kid gets it? Bringing guns to school creates a whole new set of problems even if it might solve others. Let's find other societal answers to stop mentally disturbed people from shooting innocents.
Rick
8:18 am on Friday, December 21, 2012
I totally disagree. A gun in the hands of a properly trained individual is as safe as the keys to a car in the hands of a responsible licensed driver. The principle would be the only person who knows who is carrying. Teachers would be forbidden to tell each other they are carrying. There is no need to know. I'm not sure how much you know about firearms Eric, but there would definitely be rules set for the school employees to follow. Lastly, you'll never find all mentally disturbed people either, plus, what's the criteria for labeling someone as mentally ill?
Eric
10:28 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
Erica, according to media reports (which have had some accuracy issues with this tragic even) Sandy Hook Elementary did just recently install door locks and buzzer intercoms. The scum simply shot out the windows, opened the door, and came in. The alarms drew the principal and a few others to the hallway, but they were unarmed and gunned down. If one was armed, then maybe this mass murder would have been stopped after maybe a couple victims, saving the children.
We do have a problem with mental illness. Why wasn't this person institutionalized? I had former coworkers who married, were getting divorced, and he tried to check himself into a mental ward because all he could think about was killing her. Despite his past jail time for stabbing an ex girlfriend, they let him go after a few hours, and he went to her house, waited for her to come out to go to work, and killed her with a knife or ax, I can't remember which. The mental health system in this country sucks.
I also think that all the violence in movies and video games doesn't help. Most people can handle this and tell these games from reality, but the mentally unstable can come to think killing is okay. I understand the murderer pretty much stayed in his room playing video games all day.
Korey Avery
10:52 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
Simple answer, Yes!
Frank Jones
10:55 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
Most of the people who commit these mass murders are either unbalanced or looking for their own death by police shooting or suicide. Consider Columbine - they killed themselves. Consider Sandy Hook - he killed himself. Arming teachers would not prevent this type of attack.
The odds of this type of attack is miniscule and we have several options. 1) Do nothing. 2) Arm teachers and/or administrators. 3) Fortify the schools with secure entries/bullet proof glass, double entry, etc. 4) Limit access to weapons - mental health & criminal background checks and close private sale loopholes. Maybe a few others.
My opinion is that arming teachers is a bad idea -- too many risks of misplaced guns, teachers getting blindsided and gun stolen, lacking of gun training and negotiation tactics, potential trigger happy teacher, and escalation of simple teacher/student issues.
Items 1, 3, & 4 seem more logical. 1) We have a great number of schools and relatively, very few shootings. 3) We have tremendous security when entering the airport, why not schools? 4) If we can prevent these loons from getting the guns in the first place, it would be much harder for them to kill or kill many.
Rick
8:27 am on Friday, December 21, 2012
Frank. Totally disagree. As long as no one knows who's carrying, how do you blindside someone if they have no weapon, or, they do, but the assailant has no idea where the person is carrying it?
Next, do you really want to turn schools into armed camps? What about colleges where access is wide open? Shopping malls? Arenas? Stadiums? One of the things beaten into our heads during the conceal carry class was engagement. You never ever fire at a shooter unless there is a clean shot and bystanders would not be hurt. However, every scenario is different.
As for mental health checks, those are already done. Find someone with a felony and ask them to go try to purchase a firearm at a licensed FFL dealer. I guarantee you, they will NOT get that gun. The real danger are straw buyers (gun show loopholes btw DO NOT exist, that is a total 100% myth) who buy for someone else. That is a felony for both individuals. And this BS about guns being sold in parking lots at gunshows? No different than selling a gun to a dirtbag in you basement, bar, or street corner. Illegal. Legally licensed FFL dealers do not engage in that. Unless of course DHS orders them to sell guns to drug dealers in an idiotic misguided attempt to "track them" to the bad guys. That also would be illegal unless it was called something cute like "Fast and Furious."
Korey Avery
11:19 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
Armed teachers would reduce the death toll in a mass murder. And if the crazies didn't have guns they would just use homemade bombs with diesel fuel and fertilizer and blow up the school.
Korey Avery
11:20 pm on Thursday, December 20, 2012
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
Carolyn
11:15 am on Friday, December 21, 2012
And if we don't want to be armed in school? Should we be fired because we don't want to arm ourselves? Hire only people who are willing to carry a gun? Why throw this on the principal? Maybe he/she does not want to carry. And if I am carrying a gun in school, should I leave my 5 year olds alone in the room while I'm walking around the building looking for a gunman? You would have to pay me a butt load of money for me to not only teach children but also be a cop who is willing to police a school against a person who wants to kill me. I will protect my house against an intruder. I will give my life to protect the students who are in my care, but I will not go into a hallway and sneak around corners to look for someone who is looking around corners to find me first. There will never be a good answer for this as long as there are people who want to hurt others and have access to a gun.
Rick
5:58 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
Carolyn, absolutely not. No teacher or anyone else for that matter would/should/could be forced to carry. Only those who receive the proper training and show regular proficiency would carry. Maybe my comment was misunderstood, but the same goes for the principal. I only mentioned the principal as the one who would know who is carrying.
I would be totally supportive of additional pay for teachers "IF" they carry and remain proficient. I also believe that teachers who desire to become eligible would receive a stipend to shoot at a licensed gun range with licensed instructors available. To stay proficient, once qualified, the teacher would also be eligible for 50 rounds of one caliber ammunition per month also. And keep in mind. Most teachers would also carry in the public also. Quite obvious I am a firm believer in a well armed public. The evidence is quite clear that criminals avoid situations where they know people are armed. And also remember, schools are classified as soft targets. Like I mentioned above, there are millions of soft targets in this country. It's quite clear folks, this has come down to good vs. evil. I say let good prevail.
Eric
11:40 am on Friday, December 21, 2012
Carolyn, I don't think anyone is asking to mandate all teachers carry, and they don't have to for it to be effective. Anything I've heard is to just allow teachers to carry given proper extensive training. Besides, these shooters are cowards. They look for victims they know are unarmed, and usually run away or commit suicide when confronted.
J. A. Darkshner
4:17 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
Eric,
You are absolutely correct on this one, that is why they target schools. They are soft, easy targets where people are crammed into confined areas...it sounds bad to say but let's be realistic here; like the old saying says "it is like shooting fish in a barrel". If confronted, the bad guy or guys will either kill themselves, flee or at the least it will slow them down for a teacher to engage them until police arrive. Any way you slice it, it is a better situation because some teachers were willing to step up and take the fight to the bad guy instead of becoming a victim. If you really want to look into it more, there is a school system in Texas that has been arming their teachers since 2008 with great success. Here is the link, if you really think hard about this...it makes sense! http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teachers-armed-guns-texas-school-article-1.1224257
J. A. Darkshner
3:57 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
You can only utilize this with teachers who agree to carry and receive the free training offered by law enforcement. You do not arm every tea her. Only 3 or 4 within each school. We already trust our districts teachers everyday with our kids safety, why wouldn't we trust a few to be armed to continue to ensure their safety!? The argument of a teacher leaving a gun laying around is absurd.
Jeremy Rohr
4:24 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
The article below references a number of school and other public places where an armed individual saved lives.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/19/we-know-how-to-stop-school-shootings/
JoJo
9:27 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
School Districts should be able to make the decision individually on this issue. They can choose to do nothing and hope, they can hire armed guards, or they can discreetly allow teachers to conceal carry.
I would prefer this setup:
1) Teachers privately asked whether they would be interested in being part of a conceal carry protection program, and only principal and perhaps superintendent know who.
2) In order to protect against the wrong teachers with wrong motivation or temperament being in the program, I would say absolutely NO increase in pay. Volunteer only ~ we want those with a passion to protect and wisdom to do it safely. The only financial carrot I would offer would be an increased life insurance policy, and standard hourly rate pay for the training (lots of training).
I strongly reject the idea of uniformed guards, armed or not. Mentally ill people like this Sandy Hook killer spend time planning the attack. Armed guards and publicized gun-carriers would be taken out first. For a very sick individual, having such necessary "targets" might even add to the "game's" appeal.
Gun laws won't touch this sort of insane crime. Removing "gun-free zone" notices and having random teachers/staff carrying concealed guns (hidden, never taken out and so never at risk of being "left out" as someone mentioned above) is the only rational, methodical, reasonable and nearly immediate solution. I beg our district to do this ASAP.
J. A. Darkshner
11:25 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
Jojo, This is the same exact procedure that I was thinking as well...brilliant! The problem lies in the school administration and their democratic thought process. I have been told that this will never happen here. Instead, the warm fuzzies and pipe dreams that it could never happen here are more important than having to bury our children. As supportive as I am of this, it will never happen unless a violent incident happens on STMA soil. It is sad that political agenda takes precedence, because this is a cost effective solution to combatting school violence. I have even heard that there is a group of cops that are willing to train the teachers the necessary firearms training free of charge!
JoJo
11:48 pm on Friday, December 21, 2012
Question: I was wondering, this is a poll for St Michael, with the expectation that people in and close to STMA district would be reading/commenting.
How did this end up on your radar, Frank?